Joe Phillips on The BEYOND Podcast: the safari guide who faced lions before Lord Sugar
The Counter-Intuitive Result
Most people met Joe Phillips as an Apprentice candidate. He is a trained safari guide who was charged by lions, elephants and buffalo in the African bush, and he says that is exactly why a boardroom never frightened him.
Key takeaways
- Joe Phillips is a trained safari guide and zoologist, not the stereotype the show suggested. He tracked lions, elephants and buffalo in the African bush before he ever entered Lord Sugar's boardroom.
- He says he has faced worse than Lord Sugar and means it literally. Having been charged by a buffalo, he sees business as a game you win or lose and survive, which makes boardroom pressure feel manageable.
- His real mission is conservation through education. He argues that exposing people, especially children, to nature early is the most powerful conservation tool there is, and he names David Attenborough as the model.
- His brand Surf Balm, a sustainable lip-care company, proved the power of a single moment of visibility: one sentence plugging it on national television sent orders flooding in within seconds.
- The James Bond of business tag was a throwaway line he filmed getting off a boat in South Africa, and one he mildly regrets. The producers loved it and it stuck.
- He wants to bring both halves of himself together, a naturalist and a businessman, with an ambition to make wildlife documentaries and, one day, run a safari lodge that contributes to conservation.
Most people know Joe Phillips as a candidate on series 17 of the BBC's The Apprentice in 2023, the self-styled "James Bond of business" Lord Sugar teased on screen. That description undersells him. Phillips is a trained zoologist who specialized in ethology, the study of animal behavior, and a working safari guide who has been charged by lions, elephants and buffalo in the African bush. His real ambition is to follow David Attenborough into wildlife broadcasting. The Apprentice was a detour. The bush is home.
Who Joe Phillips actually is
Phillips grew up in the developing world, hopping between Zimbabwe, Malaysia and Egypt as a child. His mother is a doctor who worked in Uganda; his father is a venture capitalist. He credits that split for his own two sides: a love of nature from one parent, a head for business from the other. He spent his earliest years running barefoot through the African savanna, and he describes it simply: when you are exposed to that diversity of biomes, from savanna to jungle to desert, it is impossible not to fall in love with nature.
He turned that into a career. He studied zoology and then ethology, and he trained as a safari guide, learning to trail and track big game. He spent three months camping in the Limpopo, tracking a different animal every day: find the spoor, track it, find the pride, approach. His trainers pushed him deliberately to the edge of each animal's comfort zone so he would learn to read danger and cope with it.
Why he says he has faced worse than Lord Sugar
Phillips was quoted as saying he had faced worse than Lord Sugar, and in his conversation with Aleksandra King he explains exactly what he meant. He has been charged by lions, which he calls scaredy-cats at heart, by elephants, which are emotional and obvious when unhappy, and by buffalo, which show no emotion and cause the most deaths on safari. His wildest story involves a buffalo that forced his trainer to break the golden rule and run.
A moment from the room
When the host asked what real fear feels like, the safari guide went straight to a buffalo that forced his trainer to break the one rule every guide is taught, and run.
Business is a game. Money is a game.
But the line is not bravado. His point is philosophical. Most people, he argues, never experience real fear any more, primitive, raw fear. You might feel stressed if you miss your train, but you rarely face the genuine article. Once you have, business looks different. Business is a game. Money is a game. You win it, you lose it, and the next day you are still alive. Seen against a charging buffalo, Lord Sugar is, in Phillips's words, a teddy bear. That reframing, that perspective on pressure, is one of the most quotable ideas in the episode.
He's a teddy bear.
The mission: conservation through education
Ask Phillips what actually drives him and the answer is not television or business. It is conservation, and specifically conservation through education. One of the most powerful tools we have, he says, is educating people about nature, and he points to David Attenborough as the person who does it best. His thinking is consistent: expose children to nature early, get them close to the ants and the beetles and the birds, and they grow up understanding why not to litter and why not to spray. People think conservation is about pandas, he notes; for him the excitement is in the small things, the insects most people overlook.
He extends the same argument to the British countryside: the hedgerows that border sprayed fields are the corridors that keep wildlife alive, and gardens and even balconies can be small havens if people stop spraying them with things they do not need. It is a clear, practical philosophy, and it is the through-line of everything he wants to do next. In an ideal world, he says, he would combine both halves of himself, running a safari lodge that contributes to conservation while running a business. Nearer term, he wants to make wildlife documentaries.
Surf Balm, and the sentence that crashed his phone
Phillips is the founder of Surf Balm, his sustainable lip-care brand, which he pitched on The Apprentice. He runs it mostly through wholesale to retailers, with an e-commerce arm making up around a fifth of revenue. The Apprentice helped, he says, though not as much as he expected, with one striking exception. On The Apprentice: You're Fired, the companion show, candidates get a single sentence to plug their business. Phillips said he ran a sustainable lip-care company called Surf Balm, and as he watched it back, the orders started landing, ten seconds later, his phone going off again and again. One sentence, on the right platform, moved real product.
A moment from the room
Watching the episode back, Phillips described his phone going off again and again as the orders landed, about ten seconds after a single sentence aired.
That is a small lesson in something larger that the episode keeps circling: visibility is its own kind of marketing win, and the people who stay relevant are the ones who keep showing up and keep giving an audience a reason to care.
The James Bond line he regrets
The "James Bond of business" tag that followed Phillips around was, by his own account, a throwaway. He decided to apply to The Apprentice the day before flying to South Africa, filmed his application getting off a boat at the lodge where he worked, and the first line that came to mind was that he was the James Bond of the business world. He regrets it, mildly, but the producers loved it and used it. As Aleksandra King points out, to stand out on a show with 110,000 applicants, you have to be a character. Phillips was. The nickname stuck.
Why this conversation matters
What makes the episode worth listening to is that it refuses the easy box. Phillips is not the stereotype of an Apprentice candidate, sharp-elbowed and growth-obsessed. He is a naturalist who happened onto reality television, a businessman whose deepest commitment is to teaching people to care about the natural world. The conversation moves from scorpions to boardrooms to hedgerows without strain, because for Phillips they are connected: curiosity about how living things behave, whether that is a baboon, a buffalo or a customer.
It is also, simply, a good talk. The conversation is part of The BEYOND Podcast, and its podcast host, Aleksandra King, grew up in South Africa herself; the two of them trade safari stories, a baboon reaching for her child's banana, a donkey she rescued from the heat in Seville, with a warmth that makes the bigger ideas land. By the end you understand why Joe Phillips wants to follow David Attenborough, and why he might actually be suited to it.
The full conversation is below, in its entirety.
The transcript, in full
Preserved verbatim and visible by default. Server-rendered, no JavaScript, crawler-accessible. This is the citable layer; the editorial framing above sits on top of it, never a flattening of what was said.
Three words: positive, enthusiastic, ambitious
In this episode, I interviewed Joe Phillips, who is a self-proclaimed James Bond of the jungle. He talks about why he's not scared of Alan Sugar because he's faced far worse things in the jungle. And we cover which animal made him faint. We cover some of the weirdest things fans have ever sent him or said to him. It's a really interesting and funny one, so I hope you enjoy it Joe, welcome to Beyond the Boardroom Podcast. I'm really happy to have you here because out of all the apprentices, you kind of stand out- … ex-apprentices because never have I ever or anyone seen a apprentice candidate who's also a safari guide. It just doesn't fit 'cause aren't, aren't all the Apprentice people supposed to be mean?
It's weird, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, most of them. But like a safari guide? That's-
Yeah, it doesn't really add up.
No, it doesn't add up. But, um- It doesn't add up.
Yeah. Thanks for having me- It's weird. Yeah … on, on this, show, and hopefully we can dive into that in a bit more detail. Yes.
Thanks for coming on.
Pleasure.
We'll start with if you could describe yourself in three words, what would those three words be and why?
Oh, my gosh. Positive, enthusiastic, and ambitious. I think that would probably be the three to-
Enthusiastic and ambitious?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
I, I'd say so. Yeah, ambitious or driven, one of them. Driven. Okay,
One of them. I think one of them has to be in there. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I said three. Yeah.
Three. So let's go for positive- Okay … enthusiastic, and ambitious. No, I
Can see that. I can, I can definitely see that. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about the safari side first. You clearly love animals. Like, did you always love animals?
A childhood barefoot in the African bush
So I was, I was lucky enough to grow up in the developing world, so I spent most of my childhood kind of hopping around these fantastic coun- countries like Zimbabwe and Malaysia and Egypt.
Why were you, why were you doing that?
It was mainly my dad's job. So my, my mom's a, a doctor, and she was working out in Uganda at the time. Mm-hmm. My, my mom's side grew up in Zambia. Dad works as a venture capitalist, so completely different. Mm-hmm. I guess that's, you can probably already tell that's where I get my kinda business side from there, and then the kinda nature-loving side from my mom.
I grew up in South Africa. Mm. So … And I visited a lot of the countries as well, the nearby countries. So Zimbabwe's one of them. Which city did you live in? Was it Harare? In Harare.
Oh,
In Harare.
Yeah, in Harare.
Listen, when I was there, never in my life have I seen spiders of that size.
Oh, yeah. You love them, though. You've got to love them.
No. You don't love them. I mean, I just looked up at the ceiling one day, and it was a bug that big. There's- It dropped on the ground, and it's like, boop. Oh,
No.
It's
Like, oh. The thing is, so spiders, yes. Oh. Our house, I don't know what it was. Our house in, in Zim, in Harare, was like … I don't know if there's, like, a scorpion nest or something there. Oh,
What scorpions taught him about loving nature
Gosh. But
It was infested with scorpions. You
Can die from that. That's not a-
Yeah, you can. You- Okay … well, there are two types of … This is, like, where my- Let's go … my passion would … Here we go. Let's go. Okay.
Scorpion knowledge. There
Are two types of scorpions. No, there's Buthidae, Scorpionidae. Right. Scorpionidae is fine, which luckily is what we had, so we've all been stung by them. And- Ugh … it's like a, a hot bee sting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, really painful, but you won't die. Um- Yes … Buthidae, if you get stung by them, sure. They're, they're- Yeah. Is
It hours? So a couple of hours or days?
No, not really. No. It, it, it … You can die from them. Mm. It's not fatal- Mm … every single time.
Mm.
But for, if you're young, like when we were, if we got stung by a scorpion, Buthidae scorpion, when we were three years old, yeah, it can be a matter of days. It's
Just the way they put their tail up, like… I know.
I know. Yeah. They're
Just freaky.
But I loved it. So to answer your question, I know we deviated a bit. Yeah. To answer your question- Yeah … my earliest memories are, like, running around the African bush- Mm … barefoot. And I've- Lovely … always been curious- Yeah and around nature.
Why conservation is about the small things, not just pandas
Close to it.
Close to it. Mm. And I think when you're exposed to s- a s- such- A diversity of biomes from the African savanna to the Malaysian jungle to the Egyptian desert. It's impossible not to fall in love with nature Yeah, it is
Impossible. They say that once you've, you've, you've lived in Africa, you've got that magic of Africa- Oh within you. 100. That's it
100%.
There is something in there, isn't it? You'll never … It's like- You'll know … it's so special.
Yeah. It's like- Yeah, I encourage anyone- Yeah … to be watching
This-
Anyone to
Go … Joe Phillips: to go. Yeah. 100%. Mm-hmm. Submerge yourself in it. But also as a kiddy, when you're so close, you know, because I mean, kids on these days on their phones, whatever, blah, blah, blah, and it's indoors and stuff. But when you're outside and you get to know like ants and what they do- Mm-hmm … and they become like y- you know, your friends. But in a way they do- No, they do … because you, you're playing with different kinds of animals and insects, and you're learning about them, and you're close to them. Like that bug and this bug-
Uh-huh
And the birds and this and that. You kind of, you then get really close- Oh, yeah … and then you feel like you wanna protect them- Yeah … don't you? Yeah.
The, that's what I loved about guiding and learning about the bush is it just- Mm. It opens your eyes to- Mm. Like I said, people think about conservation, they think of pandas.
Mm.
You know what? It's more than that. Like, the ants and the bugs and the beetles, that's, that's the exciting thing. Yeah. That's what I get excited
About. They're really cute, aren't they? Yeah. There's so much to them. But not just the ones in the, in the, in Africa and in the bush, 'cause like we'll, we'll get to this, but I also, like, because of my love for animals as well, like you- Mm in, in Africa, I've also started to discover the ones that are here.
Mm-hmm.
So the reason why I agree with you saying ambition as, one of your points to describe yourself is because in our pre-podcast call- Mm … you said that you wanna follow in David Attenborough's footsteps. I mean, that's a massive thing to say.
Oh, yeah. I'd love to try.
Put it out there. You're gonna try. Yeah, well, you want to. That's an ambition. Mm. So no one can say you're not an ambitious person.
Mm.
You 100% are very ambitious, and I think that would suit you 'cause you've got … You like the whole TV side, right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not shy, and then you love animals, so why not?
Exactly. And I love education as well. I think-
Mm-hmm … Joe Phillips: when you look at conservation, one of the big, most powerful tools we have is educating people about nature, and- Mm … Joe Phillips: David Attenborough just does that so well. Yeah.
And so that's what I'd, I'd love to do.
Studying animal behavior, from crustaceans to lions
Okay. So speaking of education, I mean, seriously, what do you actually study in zoology? Like- … just what, literally what is it?
So obviously I studied zoology at extern, ethology at Oxford, which is like animal behavior.
Mm.
It's not like you learn this is a, this is a cow, this is a giraffe
This is how a cow behaves.
Exactly. It's- Yeah … so you start, you start off, and it's starts off broad like any university degree, and then it goes narrow. So-
What do you mean broad? Like, these are the types of animal categories and-
Exactly. Like, there are- Yeah, exactly. So, like, our modules in first year were- Crustaceans, these are Yeah,
100%. Yeah.
100%. Okay. So w- like we had modules called invertebrate zoology and vertebrate zoology. Okay. So, like, these broad clades where you dive and learn about chordates and you learn about arthropods. And then-
Whether they have a s-, like a backbone thing or, or not.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
My knowledge.
But then you kind of specialize, and you can go, you know, first you'll be broad, like sustainability, ecology.
Yeah.
And then as you progress, you kind of choose the one, the direction you want to go in. So I loved, you know, like physiology, learning about the body and hormones- Oh … and things like that. And eventually specialized into behavior. Like, animal behavior was something I f- fell in love with, um-
The animals he has been bitten, scratched and stung by
Yeah, but what do you learn in animal behavior? Like, how does a lion behave when he's, you know, angry with s- another lion entering territory? Is that what you learn? It's like- Well- The lion is angry … Joe Phillips:, exa- like I, like I said, I've always been curious- Yeah … about nature. And I loved, as a guide, just sit… I could sit and watch, like, a troop of baboons or- Mm … or elephant for hours and just be like, "What are you, what are you thinking right now? What, what is encouraging-" Oh, I know what they're thinking. I'll tell you a story. The baboons- Yeah … they're like feisty little things.
Oh, yeah.
I was in a really nice resort in South Africa, but it's kind of like one of those really in touch with nature kind of resorts- Mm-hmm … basic stripped back. Mm. And, I was outside on the balcony looking at the ocean, you know, and very nice vibe, sort of in my own world with my little child, who was one years old. She was eating a banana, and then I looked- Uh-oh … and there was a baboon bigger than a man-
Yeah … Aleksandra King: looking at me. And then he started towards me and reached out to take the banana off my child. Yeah.
And on my instinct, I just literally took her, and I- Shoved her behind the doors and like sliding doors, and so she's just sliding in- Yeah and he's sort of follow, coming towards me, and I'm like, "Ah." Very scary, hey? And then I only just … Y- his hand, human hands, like honestly, the nails, you could see it. Yeah. Like so human. No way. It's crazy. Yeah. And he was so strong trying to open the sliding door, and I'm shouting for husband, going, "Helier, help me." And my husband runs, and both of us versus this baboon, and the baboon's sort of looking. And I'm like, "Oh, no, you don't. You're not eating my child today." A
Mother's instinct kicks
In. Yeah, you know what, my strength, I tell you.
Yeah, I
Bet. So I'm an a- we're animals too, you know? Mm-hmm. So like, yeah, come on, baboon.
Yeah, bring it on.
You know what I mean? Bring it on. You're not taking the banana, nor the child. But yeah. Apparently they go in, they go inside these homes, they raid the fridges. Oh, yeah. They know their stuff, man.
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah. What behavior's this, like … Joe Phillips: Yeah, they're, well, they're, they're scary as well. Their, their canines are actually bigger than a lion's. They are. Yeah. Them, the, the male- Yeah … baboons are, are scary. I've also been- Yeah … scratched by a, a, a baboon. Yeah. A baboon scratched you?
Yeah. I've, I've had so … I've been like- … bitten, scratched, stung by all sorts when I was-
How does the baboon scratch you?
I don't even know. I was, I was super young, but- Oh … it's actually very embarrassing. Like, I've, I've been, I've bitten by things, scratched by things, wild boars, monkeys, scorpions. And then in Egypt I got … It's actually so embarrassing. I don't know why I'm saying this. Say it. But, so I've had like so many rabies jabs I'm sorted for life. Mm-hmm. Like just 'cause of all the wild animals I've been scratched by. And then when we were in Egypt, I was in like a pet shop, like at the backstreets of Cairo, and playing with this little kitten. Like this, I could fit it in one hand. Oh,
Cute.
And then the kitten bit me on the top of my finger.
Ooh.
And, I fainted.
You fainted?
I was so embarrassed. I remember like, I remember looking at my finger and like watching the blood trickle, and then next thing I remember I was, I was waking up to like- Fainted … fresh orange juice and stuff.
Oh, wow.
It was so embarrassing. Like- Did you
Have antibiotic though after he, he bit you?
I actually went and got another rabies jab because- Mm … I think the reason why I fainted is as I was looking at this blood, like my mom was talking to the pet shop owner, and the pet shop was like, "Yeah, I think, um- You should probably get him some rabies jabs- Yeah … 'cause we don't quite know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, " Aleksandra King: What?" Yeah, you freaked out. Bang. Yeah.
Wow. Okay, so you have this, sensitive side to blood. But no, because, so my dad, was a veterinary scientist, but sort of like that's the reason why he got asked to go from Poland to South Africa- Okay … in 1981, right? So he, but he didn't, he worked on, like, vaccines, like Ebola-type stuff. Mm. So in these big fridges and everything. But, he used to always say that if you, ever got bitten by a cat, like as in blood, that you should get an antibiotic- Mm … because you can get sepsis from that and literally die 'cause of the bacteria.
Yeah, yeah.
They're very unique to having this toxic- Oh, you
Can, yeah
Bacteria in there. And if like- Yeah,
Like lions, one of the, like if you don't die of blood loss, it'll probably be infection- Yeah, it'll kill
You eventually … Joe Phillips: just all the bacteria. Yeah. Yeah. So the cats, so they're very nice, but if you get bitten, so yeah, you probably were right to faint actually.
The wildest thing that ever happened on safari
Yeah.
Yeah. So I was gonna ask, what's the wildest thing that's, that's ever happened?
The wildest experience. You know, when you go on safari, you can either go and drive. Mm-hmm. Like, you, you take the vehicle out, or you can go on foot.
Trek.
Trek.
Yeah.
That's what I specialized in. So I- That's
Brave.
Yeah, but I love it. Mm. When you learn to be a guide, you qualify as for guides level. I wanted to take that further and, and get my trails qualification.
Mm-hmm.
Which is where you do your advanced rifle handling. Yes. You learn how to track, how to trail. That's the danger because you're, you're in their, their environment, you know?
Yes. When- Their house.
Yeah, it's their, it's their house, their rules. Their neighborhood. Their neighborhood. So when you're in a vehicle, you feel very safe.
Mm.
When you see a lion walking by. When you're on foot-
Yeah … Joe Phillips: it's a whole different story. Vulnerable. Yeah. So the wild experience, I, I've been charged by elephant, by lion, by buffalo. You've been charged by an elephant?
Yeah, yeah.
How does that feel being-
You're f- I … As you can imagine, it gets your heart.
How did you run away from them? Joe Phillips: Oh, you never run. Yeah,
You never run. You
Never run. Okay. Joe Phillips:, except, okay, I'll tell you a story. So the goal, and obviously you want to avoid these situations. Yeah, yeah. You never wanna be- No … the whole purpose in, in learning how to trail and track is to be able to cope in a situation like that, and it's so much fun. Like, we, I went and camped in the Limpopo for three months straight. Every day we would track a new animal. So it would be, you know, today we're finding lion, find the spoor, track it, find the pride, approach the pride. Next day, elephant, ba, ba, bum. And each day, and I remember our trainers- They would want us to push the boundaries intentionally Mm.
So each animal would have, like, their zone of confidence we call it. Like, where they're comfortable. They see you, but they're like, "Okay, he's fine there." If you go a bit closer, he's like, "I don't want him to come closer."
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. And then if you step further, that's when it initiates the charge or the run. So-
You kind of deserve it, though.
Oh, yeah. And you know, and like elephant, they're so … They're, they're, they're just so obvious with their emotions. Yeah. And if they're unhappy, they'll tell you. You know, they shake their head- Yeah or they trumpet.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, so our trainers would intentionally get us to push those boundaries, so we knew how to deal with it.
Mm-hmm.
And it … So it would get to the point where you know- Based on their behavior, and you're studying this lion intensely. If I take another step here, that thing's gonna charge. And, and then you'd be stood there, and the trainer would be like, "One more step."
Oh. Joe Phillips: And then you take one more step, and then- So who are you up against here? A lion or a-
Lion, elephant. Oh. So yeah, I was gonna tell you a story. So been charged by both, but lions are quite easy, to be honest. They, they're, they're, they're scaredy-cats at the end of the day. Elephant are really emotional, so you can tell if it's a mock charge. Like, they usually pull up five, 10 meters away from you. But buffalo-
Oh, buffalo, yeah … Joe Phillips: they are another story. Okay.
So probably, yeah, if I was to give you my wildest experience, we, … Actually, I'll give you one for lion first.
Mm-hmm.
So we were on trail, and this was only, like, day two or something of the training program. And so I was, like, super naive. I was like, "I don't know what to do here." Trainer was leading the, the walk. And we didn't even get out of camp. We literally went around the corner and bumped into this female lioness.
Uh-huh.
And I think we both just scared each other. But, she just mock charged us again and again and again. Yeah, well,
She's a lioness, so yeah. She's, she's not a scaredy-cat like her husband, the
Lion. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, you know.
You don't mess with a lioness.
No way.
Yeah.
But yeah, we're like, "Hey, hey." Like, "Stop, stop." You wanna bang the rifle and stuff. Shout
At
Her. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so- Okay … that's what you do, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah … display dominance. Nature's a game of dominance. Yeah, yeah. But she wasn't having any of it. No. She was mock charging, mock charging. And then what did it in the end is my trainer put a bolt in the chamber. And I think that noise scared her
Off. Oh, okay. She's smart.
Yeah, 'cause it was like an artificial- Yeah … you know, like. Yeah, yeah,
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And she's like, "What's that?" And then ran.
Clever.
Um-
Oh,
Wow. Yeah. But yeah, so the buffalo one … Sorry. I … Let me know if you wanna move on 'cause I could just- Okay … talk forever about- We'll
Do buffalo, and then we'll move Yeah. Joe Phillips: Got it. But yeah, this was also during training. And the thing about buffalo is they show no emotion. This is why they're, they're- They're hard to read, yeah … Joe Phillips: they're so hard to read, and they, they actually cause the most deaths- Mm …, in Africa when you're on safari. But yeah, we were tracking this one buffalo We were actually tracking the herd and then the older bulls usually fall behind the herd, and they're the dangerous ones 'cause they're on their own. And anyway, we come across this one and we basically get too close to it- Mm-hmm … Joe Phillips: and it sees we're coming. And all I remember it's doing is, like, all they do is like this. Like, they look at you- … and then they're like, like, in a bovine way, like, curious. And they take one step- And
Then
It's fast … two steps.
Voom. Yeah. And then they just come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember seeing this thing, like, whoo, coming like this. And then my-
Like that Joe from The Apprentice. Yeah, exactly. "Get it." " Joe Phillips: I'm coming for it." And the golden rule is don't run. Yeah.
But with buffalo-
No, no. Run … Joe Phillips: and that's what my trainer did. He literally- Yeah ran. Ran. And before I knew it, I was like, "Oh, we're running." Yeah. And we ran and the backup trails guide actually fell- Oh, no … and she dropped her rifle. Oh. And yo, it was just hectic. And, and I remember looking back and seeing this thing coming, came around the corner, went round a tree, and eventually it, it went off. But, but yeah, that's probably the, that's probably the wildest story. Yeah, that's why you're called Jungle Joe.
I guess so.
Do you like that name?
I think so. I don't know where that originated, but I think-
Yeah … Joe Phillips: yeah. ' Aleksandra King: Cause I was gonna ask, what have you … Y- you were quoted as saying you've faced worse than Lord Sugar. I believe you now. I do. Yeah. Than the buffalo. But isn't a hippo … Hippos are the most dangerous- Mm … and feisty and unpredictable. I mean, they're also in the water. You only see their little ears and the … Joe Phillips: Exactly, yeah. Charge for you. Yeah, yeah. And they're aggressive and they're fast as well. Exactly. So fast. Yeah,
Why he has faced worse than Lord Sugar
Yeah. They, they, yeah, I think they cause the most deaths just because, they're territorial. And if you're by the riverside, you know, the locals- Mm … will be fishing or something. Um- Mm … and then, yeah, they'll, they'll chomp you.
Mm. But also on a, on a more serious note, 'cause you said, like, obviously in a car you feel safer, but I mean, I've heard stories of people, yeah, being trampled in, in cars, squashed and stuff by elephants- Mm getting too close and things like that. And it's … I, I'm never com- … I always like, yeah, you're in their environment, so it's like that's their world and-
Yeah … Aleksandra King: you kind of have to be- And do you know
What? … respectful and just-
You have to be respectful … quiet … you don't wanna get into those situations. But like you said, yeah, like, one of the quotes was, "I've faced worse than- Worse than- What, what was
It? Than, than Lord, than, than Lord Sugar. Yeah.
Yeah. So the- Yeah … the reason behind that is that I feel like these days no one experiences fear.
Mm.
Like, a real fear. Mm. Like primitive, raw- Yeah … fear. We- Mm … we don't have it, you know? You might be stressed out if you miss your train.
Yeah.
But, but very rarely these days you have that experience. Mm. So for me-
That raw fear. Yeah, I get
It Like business is a game Yeah. Money is a game. Mm. You'll win it, you'll lose it- He's not so scary- … and the next day you'll be alive … Aleksandra King: Sugar in real life, you know? Yeah. Ah, he's all right. He's all right. He's a teddy bear.
From safari guide to a call from The Apprentice
He's fine. He's fine. So why did you apply to Apprentice?
I've watched it for years- Mm-hmm … with my family. And I thought, "Ah."
Why not?
Yeah, I thought, "Why not chuck in an application?" I think there were 110,000 applicants.
There's loads of
Applicants. It's
Ridiculous. So many.
So I submitted this video, application, and then forgot about it. And then I was actually on horseback in, in the Kericho River, like, on, on safari, when they rang me and were like, "It's the BBC here. We want to chat to you about The Apprentice." I was like, "Is this a-
Seriously?
Yeah, is this a joke? Um-
Overall- Mm-hmm … was the experience on The Apprentice as intense as it looks, or how did you find it?
Oh, ab- it more so. I'd say more- More intense … it's more intense than you see on TV, for sure. Limiting tense, isn't it? Holy crumbs. Yeah, so, like, for the boardroom, for example, is what? A, like, a 20-minute segment or something- Mm … or per episode, whereas in reality you're in there for, like, four hours.
Oh, it's, like, more sometimes, isn't
It? Yeah, more. Four s- Yeah, yeah, yeah … it's a whole day, like- At
Least … Joe Phillips: thrashing it out … Aleksandra King: it's, it's a day, yeah, for, for-
But yeah, you have a boardroom day, don't you? Yeah,
Yeah, yeah.
Especially if you lose, you obviously come back. Oh,
Yeah.
And then each day is, like, you know, you're working Six days a week, 18-hour days Yeah
Like- Not eating properly
Oh, I think that's intentional. Yeah, you're not- Of
Course it is
You're just, you're fueled on, like, caffeine, sugar- Yeah adrenaline.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um-
You've got a health issue, that's a problem
You're … That, and that's what I struggled with as well. Yeah Just a lot of sugar and-
I, yeah. I couldn't cope without the food and sleep. Like, that- Oh … that, I can't do that well. You know? But
I
Think- I've got a very high metabolism. I don't know about you.
Me too. Yeah, yeah
I need food all the time.
Oh, 100%, yeah
The James Bond line he regrets
Polly. You call yourself the James Bond of business. Are you actually the … Really? No offense, like no offense.
No, I think that's one- Yeah … of the things they wanted me to-
They wanted you
To do. Um-
So you don't really believe.
Or do you? No. No, no, no, no, no. Probably do secretly. No. The, I'll tell you the story behind that.
Mm-hmm.
So when you apply, you have to submit a video.
Yeah.
And I told you I decided to apply the day before I flew out to South Africa.
Okay.
So when I landed in South Africa, I thought, "Why not? I'll apply." And I, when I was getting the boat into the, the lodge I was working at, I thought, "This is a better time than any." So I gave my friend, my phone to my colleague. Mm. And she said, "Just film me getting out the boat." It was the first thing that came to my, my mind. I was like, "I'm Joe Phillips. I'm the James Bond of the business world." Oh, Lord. And then-
Yeah … Joe Phillips: I regret saying that- No, no … 'cause then, 'cause then they were like- You got to
"Use
It." You got to, you got to, you got to be good on camera. You got to give them what … You got to, you got to be a character-
I think that's what they
Wanted … to stand out- Yeah … or it, it ain't gonna happen.
Yeah.
How has your life changed since The Apprentice? It's been, like, a year now.
Yeah.
I mean, like, a good year. So how has it been? Have you enjoyed it? Do you feel famous? Do you not feel famous?
I absolutely loved it. Like- Yeah … I, I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to go on the show. It's helped the business, but not, not as much as I thought.
You're kind of on your own when you get out, yeah.
Yeah,
Surf Balm and the sentence that crashed his phone
Yeah. It's not like a big-
Yeah. The exposure's great. Like, so for my, most of my sales come through my retailers. Like, I wholesale to them. Mm-hmm. But I do have an e-commerce section that equates to, like, 20% of my revenue. But when you go on You're Fired, you know, the show after- Mm … The Apprentice, they give you, like, one sentence where you can plug your business.
Mm.
They say, "So what's the business?" And I remember I said something s- I was like, "I run a sustainable, lip care company called Surf Balm."
Yeah.
And I remember watching it back with my phone on the side of the thing, and I was, I said that one sentence, and 10 seconds later my phone bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. No. Like, all these sales coming in. It was ridiculous. Are you
Doing that now still? You're doing that? Yeah, yeah. In terms of the fame and stuff, do you feel famous? Yes, no, little bit?
It definitely drops off. Mm. So, like, when the show comes out, it's mad. Mm. And you go from zero to 100. Yeah. And people recognize you and take pictures everywhere, and then it slowly drops off, and people- It drops, yeah yeah. People g- oh, which is, which is obvious. But it starts off with people saying, like, you know, in the street, "Oh, you're Joe from The Apprentice." Yeah. And then it goes to, "You're that guy from The Apprentice."
Yeah, to the, yeah, that guy. And
Then it goes, and then now it's
Like- Yeah, you gotta make the effort to, to stay relevant. But also, if you do stay on these platforms, you'll find that actually you're left with, at the end of it, 'cause I mean, I was in 2016. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're talking about, it's a while now. Mm-hmm. But you're c- you're left with sort of like a, a community that they, they just love what you're doing. Yeah. They're interested in you, and you're left Y- because once you've been on TV, you're en- you're sort of entertainment.
Life after the show: fans, fame and staying relevant
Mm,
Mm-hmm. That's what you are. You're enter- Yeah. You're a source of entertainment. Yeah. You know, the board, they look at, "What's, what's she doing? What's, what's Joe doing today? What's he posted?" It's just like TV for them. So y- so you're left with quite a dedicated, loyal fan base, and they stay with you, like, if, if, if it's I mean, if you, if you put the effort in, you can be. Yeah, definitely. But obviously you get some weird-
Oh my God … weirdos. Can we talk about the weirdos?
Yeah. What's the weirdest weirdo thing, fan-type thing that's happened? Come on, say it. I'll tell you, I'll tell you mine. You tell me yours. You go, you go first. No, you go first.
Ugh. Oh.
Okay, I'll go first. Okay.
Yeah, thank
You. Okay. No, I've had … Okay, I'll t- there's, what I'm, obviously- Like indecent things being sent is like, I don't like Yeah Well, obviously, okay, that's… But, What's this thing with feet?
Yes. I, my one was about feet as well. Why? What's your
Thing? What is this? No, no, I, I think feet is, is for me the we- the weird- I think, I find that disgusting
It's, it's, yeah Like,
Obviously on the,
The images of- And it's a thing, isn't it? Like, a lot of people-
Yeah
I've, I've had a lot of messages Mm. Mm Even, … I did a, I did a half ma- Ironman last weekend Oh, mm And posted a couple pictures of, of that Oh.
Yeah
And some of the messages I got off the back of that were Yeah
About your feet?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most, most of them are feet related. Yeah, yeah.
No, that, that's completely creepy. So do you have, like, wild, mad fans messaging and things
Like that? Feet, feet fans, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
Definitely.
So yeah, you love your fitness, don't you? You're very into- Mm …, so what's like, do you do, like, follow any fads? Do you do the cold plunging? Do you do, like, keto? Do you do what, like, the, the obsession with the guts? Like, what's your thing? Tell me. What's your-
I love fitness. I love all sports. A massive rugby player. Mm-hmm. I love football, cricket, tennis, golf, any sort of sport- Mm I love. But I don't follow any fads, actually.
You don't cold plunge or anything like this?
No, I, I, I don't. I, I s- actually, it, to be honest with you, it annoys me. Mm. When I see it on Instagram, I say, "Oh, fine, it's just another…" Yeah … it's like a phase. Like, people do it to post it on Instagram type thing.
So do you, do you, like, how many hours of sport do you do a day? Do you dedicate time a day to do sport? Mm,
Mm.
Every day? Seven days a-
Every- … Aleksandra King: six days? Ev-, probably six days a week.
Six days a week. You're properly-
… planning … or seven, six, seven. Yeah. Yeah. I had a, depends on what training program I'm going through. Uh-huh. But it'll usually be, like, I recently did a, a half Ironman, so the training for that is pretty intense. So
What does that entail? Tell me. Half Ironman,
So… So triathlon, so swim, bike, run.
Yep, so how many Ks?
So it, the half, the half is 2K swim.
That's quite difficult, yeah.
It's quite, so the swim's hard,
Yeah. 2K
Is difficult, yeah. Uh- Open
Water … Joe Phillips: a 90K bike. Yep.
And then a half marathon, so 21K. And then
21K running. Oh, gosh.
Yeah, yeah. Are you
A good runner? You, no?
I wouldn't say I'm a natural runner, no.
Mm. But- Did you ever belong to, like, an athletics club or like-
No, no, no, I've ne- I've more been, like, a rugby player. Mm-hmm. So, which isn't really built for r- like, long distance running.
No, but, like, to elevate your running, you should join, like, some sort of, you know- Yeah,
Yeah
You can do your intervals and
Things like that. Yeah, and I did that. So, like, my training would be for triathlon, in the mornings, I, I us- I, I'm early riser anyway, so I get up for, like, 5:30- Mm … something. Go do a couple hours in the gym before work. At lunchtime, I'll go for, like, a, a walk just to get out. A couple
Hours, so what, like, two hours, an hour in the gym?
Yeah, hour and a half, two hours in the gym.
So that's in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. Then lunch you-
Lunch I get an hour to, to- Okay … and I, I'm so like-
That's three and a half.
Yeah. That was just, that's just a walk though. No, that was just for
Your train- … training for this big event as well.
Yeah. It's like- And then the evenings would be my, like, my endurance. So I'd go either- You either run or- … bike or run, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For an
Hour. I think swimming's quite tiring, but it's such a nice sport. Oh, it's- Working everything, isn't it? Oh,
Yeah, it's so tiring.
But it's exhausting.
Yeah, I remember doing it for the first time Yeah, I'm gonna do an Ironman which is like that's like 6K- Yeah for a s- and I, I did one length of this 100-meter pool and I was like, "I can't do this."
Yeah. It's way so hard. Especially when you're starting, especially- Yeah … when you… I mean, but pro- probably, you probably swam a lot as a kid or not? Did you do?
I used to, and I actually worked as a swim coach in- Mm … in Zinn-
Mm
For the school kids there But I was the, the coach used to just, the head coach used to just teach him to swim. These kids would be crying. Yeah. And I don't wanna swim. It's so
Scary. And- It's so scary when you're starting out, yeah.
Yeah, but he would get… His tactic would be like-
Chuck them … Joe Phillips: like- Chuck them in.
They would be like grabbing onto the end of the pool like, "I don't." Yeah. And he'd be like, "Let go of the side."
Let go.
And, "But I don't want to." And then he would, "Let go or I'll get Joe to take you to the deep end."
Oh.
And he would get me to take these kids- Oh, no … and just drop them in the deep end. How
Mean. How horrible.
He was… Yeah, but they learned to swim quickly.
They didn't have a choice.
Literally. But yeah.
They had no choice. No, my dad, my dad did that to me.
Mm.
I remember I trusted him, I trusted him.
Yeah.
And then he took me into the deep end. And I was like, "Dad, oh, it's so nice." And he used to let go. And he's pushing me away. I'm going, "Dad." And he's like, "Bye." He's sort of moving away.
Oh. And I'm like, "Daddy." And then you just-
Yeah, "Daddy, Daddy." Mm. And then swim to Daddy. But yeah, it's, yeah, it's scary. Yeah. But like in South Africa, I remember growing up in pools, like you- that's what you do in the summer, you spend your whole entire day- ' Joe Phillips: Cause it's so hot in a pool, and it's just so nice. It's like just, you know?
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Sometimes as an adult now, when I get in the pool and I'm in like, you know, on holiday or whatever, and I feel like, oh yeah, childhood, you know? Ah. This is like- It's one of the best things … you know, you're a good swimmer because- Yeah you swum so much in your life, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm confident in the water actually. Exactly,
Yeah.
The mission ahead: following David Attenborough
Don't mind that. But yeah, I mean, so on this thing, remember I mentioned that like in South Africa, obviously I got to know all the animals- Mm … and you know, and, and obviously Zimbabwe and all these countries, and you kind of get to know those kind of insects and those kind of birds and blah, blah, blah. And then when I got here, I just like, my one thing, I thought I, when I buy a house, I'm gonna make sure it has the biggest garden ever- Mm … so that I can have like my own little wildlife nature reserve in, in here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like make a massive… You know, in COVID I dug up the, I got really frustrated, so I dug a pond single-handedly.
No
Way. But like now I've improved it, you know, so we've had time and I made a mass, like a lake.
I think- Have you got any fish in there or anything
Like that? Yeah, yeah, I got, I got, but, but I got natural ones. I don't wanna do this whole goldfish thing, so I got the ones that are in the Chil- 'cause I live in the Chilterns. Okay, yeah. So like, so I got the ones that are naturally in, in streams-
Oh, yeah … Aleksandra King: that occur next to everything else, so I want the newts and all of that. So you know- That's awesome … you get to know these guys as well. Yeah. And you think shame 'cause you know like, it's almost like everyone thinks of safari, like that's the place for conservation. But what about the creatures in the UK? You know, you've got all these cute little, and like the great crested newts, the one with the little- Yeah … thing above his… You, you'll know. Yeah. So like those guys and they, you know, they, they, and they like, you know, they're threatened, so you've- Mm … gotta look after them. And people fill up their ponds obviously 'cause of safety and stuff like that. Sure. Even though you can get a cover and it's fine, like you know- Mm-hmm … a, a net thing. But you sort of get to know these guys, and then you wanna protect them as well, and like the birds- Yeah … and all of that and the little animals here, so. Definitely, yeah.
Yeah. I mean, do you, what, where do you live at the moment? And do you, have you got to know the creatures here? What do you think about them? Or it's like, "Nah, I care about the buffalos."
No, I care about all creatures. Mm. And obviously- Big or small, they all play a part- Yeah … in the ecosystem they live in.
Mm.
So I do love it, but I've never, like to be honest with you- Mm … I've never had the the same passion- Mm … as I have for African wildlife.
Yeah.
I think because I just grew up there and I f- I find it thrilling and I love it. So i- in terms of, like- indulging in nature. Here, it's, it was actually more about the marine life, 'cause I, I studied in-
Yeah,
Yeah Exeter, but- Yeah … Falmouth, you know, on the coast. So my uni experience was very much, like, fishing and surfing, and you'd be bottoming out back and the seal would just come pop up. Um- Yeah,
That's c- so cool. Yeah. They're like dogs, the seals.
They're awesome. And that's actually how, that's how my business, Surf Balm, started.
Okay.
Was because I, I set up this business at university- Mm … supplying merchandise and whatnot to societies and stuff. But the lip balm was, you know, we'd go on surfs, and I remember seeing the high tide mark just littered with plastic.
Oh,
God. And like plastic. And I ha- I hated it. Yeah, it just- I just thought-
Kills you, doesn't it? Yeah. It's just the saddest thing.
And loads of plastic Chapsticks. You know, everyone used lip balm, but like, you know-
Yeah, yeah, yeah … that sort of tube thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the, yeah,
The
Tube thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, "Why- Stop it … does it have to be plastic?" Yeah. So that's how s- like sustainable lip care- Oh, I love it … started. Yeah.
Just back to the conservation stuff. Yeah. I was just, just thought of something. I think, you know, like the whole David Attenborough thing. Mm-hmm. And he did … I mean, did he do stuff in the UK? I think he did do UK stuff- Yeah, he's done loads in that as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think it'll be good for you to, to learn about the UK wildlife. I think you've got- Yeah … you've got the … I understand the passion for Africa, I definitely do. But also I think it's so nice for people to learn about what's sort of in front of them, and appreciate that, and look after it, and- 100, yeah you know, when you open up that world, it becomes y- you
Realize- That's what I'm … Like, you, you don't realize that some, some people that live in the city, they, they never experience nature.
No.
But it's actually on their doorstep. Yeah. You know? They can find it. So actually I was working with the BBC recently about doing a podcast for kids-
Yeah
About nature. Mm. And it's like, it's basically nature on your doorstep. Yeah. So no matter where you are, you can, yeah, you can experience and, and find nature, even if it's just in your back garden.
Yeah.
So that's what, what I'd love to do. I'd
Love … Yeah, I think that that's, that's really cool because it's, it's developing that as a kid to get close to it, that then you care about-
Mm-hmm
The creatures more. Whereas if you … And then I always go back to this horrible story. I used to have an ex-boyfriend once, okay?
Mm-hmm.
And, when we were in Seville, I felt sorry for a donkey- Yeah … 'cause the donkey was, like, very hot, and like, they kept put- putting people on, and the donkey had to walk. And I'm, we're talking about 45-degree heat, and I was just like- Oh thinking, "That's cruel." Like, "Just stop now. It's enough." I mean, I know that they sort of grow, the, the animals have evolved in that environment. But to have these big tourists and-
Yeah … Aleksandra King: and I felt really sorry. And then I went up to, to the guys with the donkey, and I was like, "Listen, I'm gonna give you this money. I want the donkey to sit out the next few rides, and give it water, and put it in the shade." That's so nice. And, and this ex-boyfriend got really mad at me. He's like, "What are you doing, man?" He's like, "What are you doing? Just let, let them do their thing. It's an animal." And I was like, "You're an animal." Yeah. Don't do it. " Aleksandra King: You're an animal." Because but he never grew up with that- Right … Aleksandra King: close to animals. That's why I'm saying, if you don't- If they're not like your friends, the animals, and you don't sort of form that- Ah, yeah … Aleksandra King: care for them, then you'll never care about them. It's so- How can you say
That to
An animal? It's so important, yeah. And that's why you're right, like, education as kids, if you can expose them to that as kids-
Yeah … Joe Phillips: I feel like when they're older and you say, like, "Don't litter," or, "Don't- Yeah … Joe Phillips: use plastic stuff," they'll understand why and, and the reason behind it. Plastic thing kills me. Yeah, yeah, on our- Me too yeah, on our shores. Yeah. It's like I'm always picking up litter. Yeah. And that like irritate my family when we go for walks. I'm like-
Oh, yeah,
Me too … I just can't. It's like, okay, like, no one's gonna pick it up after you. It's so- Yeah, yeah … Joe Phillips: terrible. No, but the other, just one, one last topic on like … 'Cause if you do get to know, like, the UK wildlife-
Mm
More intimately, and it means, 'cause I live in the countryside now, and I've sort of, and I go for these walks through farmers' fields a lot with my dog and stuff. Mm-hmm. And then, and I watch the wildlife, and I see all these little butterflies and moths and everything, and you can see them feeding on the little strips, the little alleyways where you can walk. Yeah,
Yeah.
And then the field is just barren- Oh, really? … because it's been sprayed- Yeah … with insecticide- Mm … and poison, and it's dead. And sort of you think, and it's like hectares, like basically all the … You know, and then you've just got these little strips. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And in these little strips, you can hear the little crickets. Oh. And you can see the butterflies, and then the little bees will come, and it's like, and the little bird will come and have a little berry or something- Mm … because that's alive, so you don't need the insecticides. That's
Brilliant.
Like, why not roll that… I mean, I know they're more, more expensive, but maybe there's ways to work things out, you know?
Yeah, yeah. I, I remember even- I'd
Love to see that … Joe Phillips: even learning in, like, A-level geography or whatever it was- Yeah … I remember learning how important hedgerows are in the UK. That's
It. Because, like, you fly over the UK, and you can see the whole countryside is scattered by fields- Yes … with insecticides and whatnot, and then bordering it are the hedgerows.
That's where it is.
And those are the corridors that have your-
Yes … all your wildlife. And also gardens. Mm. And also gardens. So whoever has a garden or even a balcony, like, if they look after that and stop spraying it with rubbish- Mm-hmm … that you don't need and just sort of let it be, then those are the little havens. Those are little nature places- Exactly … for these guys. So what's next for you?
Um-
Mini David Attenborough.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess, … Ugh, man. My personality's always been split down the middle. Like, I, I love nature conservation. Mm. And the other side, I love business. In a ideal world, I'd love to combine both, and by doing something like setting up my own safari lodge or, or something like that- Ooh so I can contribute to conservation and nature but also run a business, you know?
Mm-hmm.
But for more the, the more immediate future, I'm loving my job at the moment, at the GDS Group. And then inter- and also my business. I love doing that on the side. In terms of the nature side of things- I might, and I can't talk too much about this- Okay but I've been asked to go on a, a show that's more nature-orientated.
Really? Mm. Ah. So you can't tell us more about it, but-
So unfortunately not … ' Aleksandra King: cause I was gonna ask you, Love Island? Anything like that? Love Island, no,
No, no. No, no. There was something saying.
No, I know they were asking- But
There's another show maybe?
Yeah, potentially. Potentially.
Okay, so basically watch this space.
We'll see. We'll see, we'll see if it happens, but, if it does, it'll be fantastic.
Well, Joe, it's been great.
It's been an absolute pleasure. Been a lot of fun. Thanks so much for having me.
Thanks for coming on.
Pleasure.
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