David Robson: the companion episode on BEYONDai

The full account lives here: David Robson on The BEYOND Podcast

David Robson, science writer and author of The Laws of Connection, argues that genuine connection is a learnable skill, not a lucky accident: people click within minutes when they form a shared reality, and the psychological barriers to reaching out, chiefly our pessimism about how much other people value us, can be dismantled in days.

Our companion episode on BEYONDai takes David Robson's conversation and produces it into a single cut, entity by entity: the thesis stated, and every subject given its own point of view. This is what the episode knits together.

"Or do you seem like someone who is very polished and holding themselves back? And actually that is often what we mistake for charisma, but it, it isn't what people, the average person is responding to."David Robson

What the episode knits together

David Robson, science writer and author of The Laws of Connection

The episode gives it a section of its own in the cut, in the guest's words, so anyone researching David Robson meets it in the primary source rather than a summary of it.

The Laws of Connection

The episode gives it a section of its own in the cut, in the guest's words, so anyone researching The Laws of Connection meets it in the primary source rather than a summary of it.

The Expectation Effect

The episode gives it a section of its own in the cut, in the guest's words, so anyone researching The Expectation Effect meets it in the primary source rather than a summary of it.

Listen to the companion episode: Listen on Podhome.

Episode highlights transcript

Introduction

Guide: This is the BEYONDai companion to David Robson, science writer and author of The Laws of Connection, in conversation with Aleksandra King on The BEYOND Podcast.

Guide: David Robson, science writer and author of The Laws of Connection, argues that genuine connection is a learnable skill, not a lucky accident, people click within minutes when they form a shared reality, and the psychological barriers to reaching out, chiefly our pessimism about how much other people value us, can be dismantled in days.

Guide: The cut ahead carries the story in the guest's own words, one point of view at a time.

David Robson

David Robson: I'm David Robson.

David Robson: I'm an author and science writer.

David Robson: I've written three books, the Intelligence Trap,

David Robson: the Expectation Effect, and the Laws of Connection,

Aleksandra King: the Intelligence Trap

David Robson: that is about why smart people make stupid decisions.

David Robson: The capacity to update our beliefs is really fundamental

David Robson: to rationality.

Aleksandra King: What is a genuine connection?

David Robson: We come to form a shared reality with the other person.

Aleksandra King: Why do so many high achievers end up feeling so disconnected?

David Robson: Successful people are gonna face. The same challenges

David Robson: as that the average person, and they become very dogmatic

David Robson: my way or not at all.

David Robson: There's lots of benefits to being introverted.

David Robson: Extroverts often are perceived as being quite shallow.

David Robson: What they could really learn from is how to listen

David Robson: more attentively to people.

Aleksandra King: Why is it so hard for people to admit they're wrong?

David Robson: We begin to attach our expertise

David Robson: and our performance to our ego.

Aleksandra King: Why do some people seem more naturally

Aleksandra King: and charismatic than others?

David Robson: If you really want to see who gains the most respect

David Robson: it is having you.

Aleksandra King: for the viewers, if they can take away one thing

Aleksandra King: from the research that you've done

Aleksandra King: that can really help turn their lives around,

Aleksandra King: what would that be?

David Robson: Evidence backed, very powerful. And that. I

David Robson: am an expert in psychology and neuroscience

David Robson: and, um, the ways that we can improve our behavior

David Robson: to increase our wellbeing, both mental and physical.

The thesis

David Robson: is that we come to form a shared reality with the other person.

David Robson: And that is this, um, kind of deep conviction

David Robson: that we're processing the world in the same way. In a similar

Aleksandra King: way. Yeah, exactly. At a very kind of visceral level.

David Robson: So you might be laughing at the same jokes

David Robson: or, you know, you see. The same event happened

David Robson: and you, you're both thinking the same thing.

David Robson: You're finishing each other's sentences. Mm-hmm.

David Robson: Or, you know, interrupting each other is sometimes considered rude.

David Robson: But with these people it's natural because you're on the same wavelength.

David Robson: And we can see that in brain scans. Um,

David Robson: which I really love that there's this kind of neural,

David Robson: literal truth to the idea that you're on the same wavelength.

David Robson: Because what you see is when you scan these people's brains,

David Robson: what they're watching in the experiment,

David Robson: it was like a series of YouTube clips of music videos,

David Robson: comedy clips, documentaries, and all of these things. Um,

David Robson: but what you saw was that the people who felt closest to each other

David Robson: were showing the most similar. Brain activities.

David Robson: So their brains were somehow in sync. Oh my

David Robson: gosh. You know, to each point in the clip

David Robson: they were showing the same responses,

David Robson: whereas people who weren't really that good friends,

David Robson: you know, they were showing very different neural responses.

Aleksandra King: Okay. Does that where we're on the same wavelength come from? Uh,

David Robson: yeah, exactly.

The thesis

David Robson: And also they, maybe they find it harder to form that shared reality of people

David Robson: because there are so few people in the world who kind of have the particular set of circumstances

David Robson: and pressures that they're experiencing. Um,

David Robson: so I think that does, um, kind of. You know, I think it's not just like Taylor Swift,

David Robson: it's not just pop singers.

David Robson: I think that's probably true in lots of different spheres.

Aleksandra King: Yeah, I mean it's even CEOs,

Aleksandra King: so for example, if you have, let's say there's a big company, a corporation,

Aleksandra King: and then at the top you've got the CEO.

Aleksandra King: So, and, and that's, there's lots of people in the company, high, high level manager,

Aleksandra King: mid-level manager, whatever you wanna call it.

Aleksandra King: And then the employees and everyone's there.

Aleksandra King: And, and then let's say you've got a party after work

Aleksandra King: and everyone's sort of chatting amongst themselves 'cause they're on a similar understanding,

Aleksandra King: on a similar level.

Aleksandra King: And then the CEO walks in and it's like, oh, the CEO

Aleksandra King: and people are too scared, you know, and the CEO is feeling awkward

Aleksandra King: and it's totally a vibe, like a bad vibe.

David Robson: The power dynamics can be very difficult.

David Robson: Yeah. Um, that, yeah, because, um, you know, because people do feel that fear

David Robson: and, you know, they shouldn't feel fear, but I think it's, it's kind of right in some ways

David Robson: that there is a, you know. That if you've established a hierarchy within an organization,

David Robson: there's benefits to that, but there's also kind of costs. Personal costs.

The Laws of Connection

David Robson: the laws of connection, um,

David Robson: because I guess with that book, I, I learned that there were, there's lots of kind of psychological barriers

David Robson: we have that prevent us from, um, reaching out to other people.

David Robson: And one of them is just that we're very kind of pessimistic about how much

David Robson: other people value us.

David Robson: So I think for someone like me Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Who's a little kind of socially anxious. Anyway,

David Robson: I'm kind of just a bit too reluctant to suggest to someone let's meet up,

David Robson: because my assumption is it will be an incon inconvenience for them,

David Robson: but the research shows, you know, this is quite a common bias

David Robson: and it's probably wrong. Mm-hmm. Like,

David Robson: they probably, they're probably feeling like I am, like

David Robson: they want someone to reach out and they're may be feeling a bit shy too. Invite, yeah.

David Robson: Yeah. So, you know, if we can try to become that person, um, better for everyone. Oh,

Aleksandra King: I love that.

Aleksandra King: I love that.

Aleksandra King: I love also what you said earlier about reestablishing a connection.

Aleksandra King: So even that little funny joke or whatever it is, you're just tapping in

Aleksandra King: and you're showing someone you care

Aleksandra King: and you're saying the connections are, are good.

Aleksandra King: They're good for all of us.

Aleksandra King: They're good for our health,

Aleksandra King: they're good for our brains.

David Robson: Yeah. Yeah. They really are. Um,

David Robson: so there was a huge, uh, meta-analysis.

David Robson: Now, what we mean by that in science is where you kind of gather all the. Evidence today,

David Robson: look at all of the studies. Mm-hmm.

In their own words

David Robson: And that was something that surprised me with researching the laws of connection was that,

David Robson: um, yeah,

David Robson: extroverts often are perceived as being quite shallow actually.

David Robson: So they might think they've got great people skills, but often they don't. Um,

David Robson: and what they could really learn from is how to listen more attentively to people. Uh,

David Robson: because, um, the perception of extroverts is that they often, they'll say platitudes,

David Robson: but you're not really establishing that shared reality.

David Robson: 'cause they're spreading themselves too thinly maybe.

Aleksandra King: Yes.

Aleksandra King: And they're possibly saying things they shouldn't. 'cause they may be not.

Aleksandra King: They're so extroverted that they're not actually reading. Maybe an introvert

Aleksandra King: would be a little bit more careful and read the body language

Aleksandra King: and perhaps assess the situation a bit more carefully. Yeah.

Aleksandra King: The extrovert will dive in and then possibly say something, you know, that

Aleksandra King: probably they shouldn't say, or it's a bit. Yeah, they just haven't read the room as well.

Aleksandra King: It's too much.

Aleksandra King: You don't always have to speak either. No.

David Robson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Robson: And that is, I think that's almost the kind of tragedy here is that introverts are maybe better equipped

David Robson: to form those really authentic, deep relationships.

David Robson: I agree.

David Robson: But they, they avoid the situations in which they might be able to do so

Aleksandra King: They avoid it.

Aleksandra King: They avoid it.

Aleksandra King: It's fascinating actually.

Aleksandra King: So can mindset actually alter after measurable things like fitness,

Aleksandra King: immune response or pain?

The Expectation Effect

David Robson: so that was the big question that I set out to, um, to understand in the expectation effect. Um,

David Robson: and you know, there's a century of research looking at an expectation effect called the placebo effect. Mm-hmm.

David Robson: Which I think we all know, you know, positive expectations about medications often bring relief

David Robson: even if you're actually taking It's a real thing. Yeah. A sugar pill.

David Robson: Yeah. It's a real thing.

David Robson: You know, we know that it has physi physiological effects on the body, so it can change things

David Robson: like the, um, expression of the endogenous opioids in the brain that will help to reduce inflammation

David Robson: and pain, for example.

David Robson: So, you know, we've known for a long time the placebo effect is a real thing and that it can be

David Robson: powerful. Um,

David Robson: but what this latest research covers that I was looking at for the expectation effect

David Robson: that showed that our mindset. Can have a similar, it can produce this kind of placebo type effect

David Robson: in other areas of life.

David Robson: So fitness, how we respond to a diet, how we deal with sleep loss, how we cope with a stressful

David Robson: situation, even how we physically age as we get older. Wow,

David Robson: it sounds incredible, but it's all backed up by really robust research

David Robson: and there's always these kind of very, um, well accepted, plausible biological mechanisms.

The Expectation Effect

Aleksandra King: So just so we all are clear on. Uh, you've written a book about expect the expectation effect. Exactly.

Aleksandra King: So can you just tell us what is the expectation effect? Yeah.

Aleksandra King: Um, so we understand

Aleksandra King: and how is that different to manifestation? Okay. Yeah. The whole manifestation culture.

David Robson: Yeah. Um,

David Robson: so the expectation effect is, um, this phenomenon where our beliefs create self-fulfilling

David Robson: prophecies. And so that can be through changes to perception.

David Robson: You know, it just changes your kind of mood, um, essentially, or it can change what you focus

David Robson: on in your environment. Um,

David Robson: you know, if you focus on like a, a happy face in the crowd or the kind of angry face in the crowd, it's

David Robson: what do you see.

David Robson: Yeah. So what do you see,

David Robson: it's spot the yellow car.

David Robson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

David Robson: Um, for changes to your behavior.

David Robson: So changing, moving you from avoidance to approach, for example,

David Robson: encouraging you to just do the workouts that you've been avoiding

David Robson: and then. Physiologically, which we've spoken about.

David Robson: So that kind of mind body connection, um, in which our mindset is actually changing

David Robson: the way our body responds to a challenge.

David Robson: So that's the expectation effect.

David Robson: It's got those free mechanisms.

In their own words

David Robson: And, you know, within a few days had really, really, yeah, I'm the same. I read that and take it seriously.

David Robson: Exactly.

David Robson: And um, but luckily I was writing a piece about the MINDBODY connection for the BBC at the time.

David Robson: And so that made me think, well, I'm just gonna actually look at the scientific literature. Like,

David Robson: you know, how much of this is an inevitable sign, um, biological reaction to the chemicals in the pills

David Robson: and how much, you know, might it just be an expectation effect?

David Robson: And what I found from that was, well actually, when you compare. You know,

David Robson: people taking the drugs with people who believe they're taking the drugs, but they're not

David Robson: actually. You see that there's a really sizable nabo effect there. It's

Aleksandra King: sizable.

David Robson: Yeah.

David Robson: So, you know, I'd say the majority of people who experience the headaches,

David Robson: you know, are probably experiencing it because of their expectations

David Robson: and opening my mind to that possibility.

David Robson: That's powerful.

David Robson: Yeah, It is.

David Robson: That is powerful. Um, opening my

David Robson: mind to that possibility, um, kind of made the pain disappear almost immediately.

David Robson: So that then made me think, you know, well, what else can our expectations do?

David Robson: And that was why I started collecting, you know, a whole body of like 400 papers, um,

David Robson: that eventually became the expectation effect.

In their own words

David Robson: And so, I think warmth. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, how do you seem like the kind of person who is gonna cooperate, who's genuine, who's telling the truth? Um.

David Robson: Or do you seem like someone who is very polished and holding themselves back? And actually that is often what we mistake for charisma, but it, it isn't what people, the average person is responding to.

David Robson: And so that, that kind of makes me think of, of finding that I found very powerful while researching the laws of connection, which was something called the Beautiful Mess effect.

Aleksandra King: Okay. So you look at someone like Princess Diana, who I think we all agree, had tons of charisma. I mean, totally incredible how popular she became

David Robson: when she gave her, um, interview to Panorama. Like a lot of the role family thought she had basically provided her own character assassination because she had revealed her vulnerability. Um,

David Robson: she, you know, had said things her own she'd openly admitted to a lot of mistakes herself, as well as the, you know, kind of general problems she was facing with the royal family.

David Robson: So they were quite. Chilled about it actually. They thought, you know, this is the end of Diana, basically. But her popularity increased massively after that interview.

Summary

Guide: That was David Robson on The BEYOND Podcast.

Guide: The cut covered David Robson, then The Laws of Connection, then The Expectation Effect, each from its own point of view.

Guide: The full record, the transcript and every link live at BEYONDai.media.

Read the full account: David Robson on The BEYOND Podcast

Narration is AI-generated. Everything said in the conversation is human.